Kendall Jones (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome to Whitley Penn Talks, where we give you valuable insights to help you make confident, informed decisions and move your business forward.

I’m Kendall Jones and today we are talking about the current economic climate in relation to the nonprofit industry. I’m really excited to introduce our guests. Today we have Emily Landry who is a Tax and CAAS partner at Whitley Penn and Jennifer Trevino with Leadership Fort Worth. So we’ll start with a couple quick intros and then we’ll get into our content today. Emily, will you start us off?

Emily Landry (00:40)
Sure. Kendall, thank you for having me. I’m happy to have rejoined the WP Cares podcast. We focus on our nonprofits in our local community. My friend Evan in our Permian area has been focusing on some nonprofits in that direction. And I’m glad to have it back in Fort Worth for a few podcasts over here.

Jennifer, my guest today, I’m so happy to have you. I am a partner in our Fort Worth office where I focus on tax and CAAS but specifically with our nonprofit focused clients. I do a few other things but my bandwidth is directed more into nonprofits. Jennifer, why don’t you take it next.

Jennifer Trevino (01:32)
Thank you so much, Emily, Kendall. It’s so nice to meet you all and be with you this afternoon. You know, a little bit about me, I’ve had the privilege of serving as the executive director of leadership for four and a half years. So I was one of those folks that said, oh, yeah, let’s change jobs in 2021 and do something a little crazy and different at the same time as the world’s was a little busy at the time with the pandemic.

But this role is actually the first time I’ve been executive director for a nonprofit, but I’ve been in nonprofit leadership since 2018 when I made a career pivot from higher ed in healthcare at a state agency. I also have corporate marketing experience as well as retail store operations and consulting all mixed in there too. So I think this role really epitomizes and brings together a lot of my experience and background to ⁓ really help leadership Fort Worth fuel the Fort Worth’s leadership pipeline.

Kendall Jones (02:31)
Awesome, thank you. You’ve really done it all.

Jennifer Trevino (02:31)
I try to, but it helps that I have a great husband of almost 24 years and we have four dogs that are all rescues. So between all of that, keeps me busy.

Kendall Jones (02:47)
Well, cool. Thank you for sharing, Jennifer and Emily. We’re again, very excited to have you both here today and to talk a little bit more about the nonprofit space focused on North Texas and abroad outside of North Texas. ⁓ But before we jump in, Emily, we have a nonprofit conference coming up on August 26th. Do you want to share a little bit more about what our listeners could experience if they join us that day?

Emily Landry (03:14)
So we love getting to spend time educating our nonprofits and really partnering alongside them. Jennifer has worn a lot of hats in her career and a lot of times what we see is people in positions where they’re wearing a lot of hats, and they may not have the opportunity to benefit from taking the time for themselves to learn from as many different people as they can. So we wanted to put together just some resources for a little half-day conference here in Fort Worth where everyone can attend for free. We have four different opportunities for that day for different topics. We’re gonna have an economic update and personal strategy for giving.

I think that’ll be incredibly important given all the fluctuation and the economy and with tariffs. It’s been a really hot topic this year. The North Texas Community Foundation is going to speak to you fueling community impact in times of uncertainty. Then Missy Gale with Gale is going to present annual giving strategies based on the economic landscape of the nonprofit sector.

And then Jonathan Rittenhouse and I are gonna close this out with a panel discussion moderated by Kelly Hart about the future of nonprofits, specifically tax legislation, the use of AI, and the ever increasingly difficult time we’re having in hiring people over the course of the year. I think every nonprofit’s had a tough kind of road ahead of them and really since COVID, Jennifer, what a remarkable story to join in a nonprofit during 2021. So I think a lot of this we’re really trying to target things that are going on right now, but also really focus on how does this impact you going forward? So we’ve nicknamed the conference Impact and so if you’ll see anything about Impact out in our promotional material, you are looking at the profit conference.

Kendall Jones (05:22)
Awesome, awesome. Thank you for that. We’re really excited to host that event. And it’s the inaugural year, correct? This is the first time we’ve done it? Awesome. Yeah, well hopefully we repeat it for years to come and that it makes a good impact, just like the name of it is. Well, thank you for sharing a little bit more there. Jennifer, ⁓ why don’t you dive in a little bit more on leadership Fort Worth and what it is that you do there and your passion behind it all.

Jennifer Trevino (05:54)
Thanks so much. So Leadership Fort Worth is one of a lot of different programs across the community or across the country, should say, community leadership programs. ⁓ And we’re one of the oldest in the country. Very proud of that. So our mission is to educate, empower and connect diverse leaders who serve as catalysts for a vibrant and sustainable community.

So what that means is we’re really trying to fuel for leadership pipeline at all levels, from the boardroom to the grassroots and neighborhood type organizations and everything in between and really help our leaders at all different levels through our three adult programs, our one youth program, to be able to understand how they can make an impact in Fort Worth. We do it by and trying to instill the principles of community trusteeship with each of our participants. What that kind of looks like is whether you’re making a decision for your family, you’re making a decision in a boardroom and everything, every place in between that you’re really considering the community and the people that are going to be affected by your decision to make sure that if nothing else, if everybody can’t benefit positively from the decision and the effort, no one’s being harmed in the process or that their situation is being affected.

So really trying to get people to understand that and give them different perspectives about the history of Fort Worth, where we’ve been, where we’re going, ⁓ the different sectors of community, why things work the way they do, how things really work in Fort Worth. And I always tell people you get such a great like behind the scenes view of Fort Worth, whether it’s at City Hall or it’s in the arts and culture arena or it’s in healthcare or education, because we take you to all different places around Fort Worth to see places you might not ever visit as a regular citizen, but that you then also get to experience and learn more about different topics and meet different guest speakers as well as our fabulous facilitator who runs the program as well.

Each of those programs that we have, so it’s leadership class, it’s nine month program, leading edge is a six month program, leader kids is for our eighth graders and we partner with Fort Worth HD and TCU’s leadership center to deliver that one. And then last but not least, we added leader prime, which is for CEOs and C-suite executives. And it’s a three day intensive since they typically don’t have as much time, but it gets them into the fold of Fort Worth so they can have a great network starting off, whether they’re new to Fort Worth, knew their role or their company’s new. It really helps folks get plugged into our community overall.

Emily Landry (08:37)
Love your response because I, I mean, I am a little biased doing what I do all day every day, but I do think we have a really good behind the scenes look at what goes on in Fort Worth and some of the generosity, both in time and in actual dollars, how things really do move through the city to create such a wonderful, vibrant city. So I just think that’s such a great response. So can you talk more about your role specifically? Like what do you do just in a day to day and what’s your favorite thing about what you get to do?

Jennifer Trevino (09:16)
The thing if you look at my career, one of the things that is interwoven across all of my positions and industries is the fact that there’s the opportunity to be involved in cross-functional teams and cross-functional areas, but also have a big picture outlook as well as my own tasks and to-dos that I can check off and feel like I got something done today. So a typical day, there really isn’t a typical day and that’s also something I enjoy.

I feel spread, you know, mile wide and an inch deep, but most days it’s pretty manageable. I’ve got a great team. 

We have six total on our team. Our budget’s less than a million dollars. So like a lot of nonprofits in our space, we’re size-wise, small but mighty is what we say. So my role is everything from board relations, community relations, fundraising, grant writing, making presentations, speaking on podcasts like today to help represent our organization and promote what we’re doing so that we’re not a secret to new people to our city. 

It can be meeting with partners at the corporate level. It can be meeting with funders like North Texas Community Foundation, like you mentioned earlier. It can also mean recruiting. So I have fortunately love coffee. I have lots of coffee meetings and breakfast meetings to recruit participants into our programs, partners. We often look for folks that are full circle partners so that not only are they sending program participants, they’re sponsoring events, they’re participating actively by hosting a program or sending a speaker or a subject matter expert, volunteering with us, whatever that looks like.

So kind of back to your point earlier, Emily, about the time, talent, and treasure that people give. So that’s a little bit about my day. I really enjoy that, you know, I can be from as formal as, you know, fully suited heels and, you know, the whole glam gamut to jeans and tennis shoes and, you know, a t-shirt for our kids day or something, you in between. But, you know, our team is definitely a whatever it takes kind of team, we get it done, but we also really enjoy working with each other. We have a great time working with each other and have each other’s backs. And I think, you know, I’ve been able to bring that leadership and management experience from my career to bear in that.

So hopefully, all of that does something to make me a better leader for our organization and kind of role model what we want to see out in the community too. So just a little pressure as well on that, but you know, I’m very grateful and thankful to get to do this work. You know, it’s one of those great organizations because really does get to touch so much. So many people, mean, on average we are training developing over 150 leaders in Fort Worth on a given year and so you know it’s the seeds, it’s all the seed planting that we get to do on a regular basis that’s so rewarding.

Kendall Jones (12:27)
Yeah, definitely. And I’m curious, when was leadership Fort Worth founded? So how long has this been the mission?

Jennifer Trevino (12:35)
So it was founded in 1972. And so there was a movement for community-based leadership programs like ours back then because there was a tragic accident in Atlanta that highlighted the need for communities to really have a pipeline of folks ready at all levels. So boardroom, elected office organizations, civic leaders, community leaders, all different levels. So the concept of community leadership programs like ours was founded in actually Leadership Atlanta, I believe is the oldest one in the country. And that’s where we’re kind of modeled after. the unique thing and special thing is that each city and community, whether because some of the programs like ours are county based, some are statewide based, it’s catered to what the city and the community needs now.

Leadership Dallas, for example, is so different than leadership Fort Worth or leadership Houston because that’s what our community needs and how it’s set up.

Kendall Jones (13:37)
Yeah, definitely. And I live in Houston now, but I grew up in Fort Worth. So very familiar with the impact that’s made there and many of the leaders that have gone through the program. They’re doing amazing things. So I love watching that for sure.

Jennifer Trevino (13:40)
Absolutely.

Yeah we have, I always like to say that people that go through our programs in Leadership Fort Worth are the movers, shakers, and change makers that we need.

Kendall Jones (14:02)
Yes, I love that. love that. Movers, shakers, and changemakers.

That’s a great way to say it. ⁓ But definitely super impactful in your role and all that you do. if you had to pick one thing that you’re most passionate about in your role, what would that be?

Jennifer Trevino (14:20)
I think the ability to connect people, so connecting them to each other, to mentors, to advocates, to resources, to opportunities to serve.

I think just that connection and then the fact that I’ve lived and worked in Fort Worth now for over 20 years. Being able to leverage my network for the betterment of Fort Worth is really rewarding and fulfilling to me too because I always tell people, what’s the point of having this great, fabulous network if I’m not going to use it and share it and say, need to talk to so and so and y’all are both working on this and you need to go over here and do all those things.

Kendall Jones (14:45)
Yeah, really that cross-functional team experience to connect the dots and just hear a need and be able to solve it with someone else’s time and continue doing that. I’m sure that’s really rewarding, especially getting to do it for now going on five years. That’s awesome. In your current role, that is. You’ve been doing that elsewhere, but with Leadership Forward specifically.

Jennifer Trevino (15:11)
Right. Well, and as I’m a graduate of the program, so I went through leadership class in 2009. And when I have interviewed for this role in late fall, late summer, early fall of 2020, when I really went through the process of recognizing that so much of what I have done since 2009 to when I joined Leadership Fort Worth was because of Leadership Fort Worth and what I learned, who I met, organizations that I didn’t know about, all these different things that I went, huh, and I hadn’t even figured it all out until I went through this process. But I think being a graduate of the program, if you told me back then, 16 years ago, that I would end up being the executive director, it’s, yeah, you’re crazy.

A lot of the things that I’ve done on boards, commissions, you know, even deciding to run for city council in 2016 and 2017, never would have done any of that without Leadership Fort Worth.

Kendall Jones (16:21)
Yeah. Awesome. Very cool. Thank you for sharing that with us that you went through the program as well. Love it. Emily, do you want to kind of jump down in our questions to the Mayor’s desk event?

Emily Landry (16:35)
Yeah, so I noticed the Mayor’s Desk event and we’ve talked a lot about how leadership for it really impacts the city and how much the city benefits from it. I guess I would just say rather than me talking about what I learned about the event, would you like to talk about the event and specifically the key findings from that event? I think that would be really beneficial for the audience.

Jennifer Trevino (16:58)
Yeah. Absolutely. With a lot of nail biting and cat herding and all the things we were able to bring, you know, four mayors of Fort Worth together. So we’re fortunate to be really involved and have a good relationship with former mayor Kenneth Barr, who is one of the facilitators for our leader prime executive program. But it was also in our inaugural class in 1973. So he is still being engaged, you know, he’s engaged with us and supports us in so many ways. So that helped. And then once we got the current mayor, we were able to work on the other two as well. So it was such a treat to have Kenneth Barr, Mike Moncrief, Betsy Price, and Maddie Parker all on one stage. And then Rose Bradshaw being the CEO of the Texas Community Foundation and also an alum of ours. Being the moderator was fantastic.

I think for me, the thing that really stood out. was an opportunity for us to really highlight community trusteeship in action and in leadership through their service. And they talked so openly about a lot of their decision making, tough challenges. 

We had a timeline, a historical timeline from each of their terms that we leveraged some content that the North Texas Community Foundation had originally produced. And then we added to it to include Mayor Parker’s tenure. But for me, think the things that were key takeaways were how tough it is to be a leader in this day and age, especially in this day and age, but even during any of their terms. And some of the things that they went through, whether it was attracting the airport, development around Hillwood and Alliance, to the toll roads, to tragedies that have impacted our city, like the tornado. I mean, just all different things that are challenges that many of us will never have to deal with in our day-to-day jobs, thankfully.

But I think some of the best things that we took away were not only how leadership’s tough and challenging on a day-to-day basis, but also some of the exciting things that they got to be part of and how you really can have a legacy with some of your service and what you are involved in. And honestly too, it was great to see the camaraderie. Like I knew that they were friendly, but then just to see the camaraderie with these leaders and how they still stay in touch, they still serve as resource for each other. And that that’s not typical of a big city like ours.

I think programs like Leadership Fort Worth and some of the other things that are across our community is what helps it seem like it’s still accessible, that it’s you can network and get to know some of the movers, shakers and changemakers even though we’re now this ginormous city. You know there’s still things that make it feel smaller, and I jokingly say because of that that’s why it’s not six degrees of separation in Fort Worth, it’s two.

It takes like two different connections and you’ve met, you’re connected with other people pretty quickly. And then as far as working with them, it’s just a reminder too that they’re human beings, that they have hopes, dreams, good days, bad days, the families, what the sacrifices really can be for public office, you know, from a time standpoint and end career because it’s a full-time job, but it doesn’t pay like a full-time job.

I think those are some of the main things that we really took away from that event and it was sold out. It was a great opportunity for us to highlight our work but also what they were doing and not sure how we’re gonna beat it yet but we’re working on it. Yeah. Well, every March we host a big event like that.

Kendall Jones (21:07)
I was gonna say it sounds like a great event. I’m bummed that I wasn’t able to be there.

March ’26 will be even better. Emily, what was it from that event that you took away? What was your key kind of learning from attending this year’s?

Emily Landry (21:29)
You know, I didn’t have the benefit of getting to go. Unfortunately, that was during tax season. But it’s OK, Jennifer. You did so well. Now I’m going to make a point to come to your next one.

What I think too is, I don’t know that Kendall knows this, my dad served on the school board and my mom volunteered from the time I was born through my brother graduating and both of my parents are still really involved and you don’t think about the toll it takes on them and on their career.

Also the lessons it instills in their children. I wouldn’t say that like my parents ever sat me down and said, it’s important to go give back or, I mean, we didn’t have like direct conversations about that, but seeing it modeled well was important. And I think we all do notice in Fort Worth that former Mayor Price still attends a lot of events with current Mayor Parker and that there there’s just this sense of camaraderie amongst all of them. And it does it does feel like a very special unique city. Again, I am biased though, so maybe my viewpoints a little odd ball on that, but I think it is.

Kendall Jones (22:57)
It is! No, it is unique. Yeah.

Emily Landry (23:00)
And I think that a big part of that, that when I’ve heard any of our leaders in the city speak, they do often credit the nonprofits. So I would just wonder like out of that, are there things that you think that the nonprofits are working towards that we need to be partnering alongside the nonprofits with in the future?

Jennifer Trevino (23:25)
Absolutely, I think, you know, to your point, there’s so many nonprofits that are doing great work. So everything from the large organizations like United Way of Tarrant County, the Tarrant Area Food Bank, but then you also have a lot of great organizations focused on youth across the board, so I won’t start naming too many because then I’ll forget and somebody will get mad at me. But there’s a lot of nonprofits at Fort Worth that are doing really good work and they’re being challenged every day, especially with just the climate we’re in right now. I think many of our folks that are running nonprofits, my peers, are working hard. They love their missions. You have to be very passionate about the work that you’re doing. Otherwise, you just get burned out or look to shift gears. And people do shift gears and that’s okay too. There comes a time sometimes for folks they need a break. But I think so many of our folks are creative, they’re innovative.

I mean just the last five, six years: You think about what nonprofits have been through. One of the recent panels I got to moderate was a group of women leaders that run nonprofits. And one of the things I really emphasized to the audience for that event was that these are women who could be leaders anywhere. It’s not that their second string or whatnot, they could easily be leaders in the business world, in the for-profit.

They choose to be in the nonprofit sector and I think that’s the thing to think about too. I mean basically yes they’re nonprofit, they’re not looking to you know increase the wealth for shareholders or stakeholders in that sense, but they’re trying to solve problems make our communities better and I would say too, if you have a non-profit, if you have a payroll, you’re a business. So they have to know all the other things too, whether there’s HR, IT, marketing, the fundraising, the development, the services that they’re providing their clients or the community.

So I think that’s one of the things too that why, in the Fort Worth community, we have a lot of great leaders that have been in place for a while but also have great experience. Some that are like me that have a wide range of experience and so they bring that to bear as well. But really I think the things that are kind of going on right now economically is just some of the uncertainty. I mean, the fact that we’re hearing all these reports about the college grads, the class of 2025 having one of the toughest job markets doesn’t bode well as we start thinking about the donor, the future donors.

You know, as the generations shift in the workforce, who are the retirees, what does their wealth look like, what is their retirement packages and what things look like, how are they, are they going to be able to donate, you know, corporate philanthropy and foundations is not the most, is not the bread and butter for most organizations nonprofits, it’s more around the individual donor. And so if we’re not doing a good job to instill that philanthropy, that giving. Like Emily, you said that sense of giving back in the next generations, we’re gonna be in trouble with a lot of organizations as well. And then it’s just like in many ways, like clients and customers, right? When you’re having to acquire donors, people be aware of you, volunteers is usually the gateway into being a donor and finding how people are passionate about a mission. And that’s where organizations like ours help too, because we are exposing so many leaders to nonprofit organizations so they can figure out what is their cause that maybe they’re most passionate about. That’s a little bit I think about what’s going on in the nonprofit sector and leadership in general and how that kind of all plays together.

Kendall Jones (27:32)
Yeah, definitely. Lots of changes and just lots of, a little bit of unknown coming our way, but hopefully in a more positive way as we learn to pivot and create efficiencies in our day to day. Jennifer, to wrap up here, I would love to ask you one more question. This is off script, so if you need a second, we can take it. But what is something that you’re most excited for in the coming year in your role and leadership Fort Worth in general?

Jennifer Trevino (28:02)
So I am most excited for the mentor programs that we are piloting and launching this year. So our fiscal year is July 1 through June 30. And so we just started our new fiscal year. And that’s also for our new alumni membership cycle as well. So the LFW Alumni Association.

We’re currently under a membership drive, but one of the programs we’re going to be announcing and sharing is that by being a member of our organization, paid member, then you are eligible to be a mentor or a mentee, or both if you really want to. So that we’re really excited about this being a great engagement opportunity for our alums and some of our executives, like a Rose Bradshaw, who could potentially be mentoring one of our class of EDS graduates or, you know, our class graduate that’s mentoring an alum from EDGE. And this is something that could then be transitioned whether they graduated in last five years, 10 years.

So doing that but also working with some of our higher ed partners to have alums that are signed up to be mentors to college students in some different needs areas, whether it’s community leaders and seeing people that are doing the work that they want to do eventually as a graduate, or just navigating being first gen students and navigating some of the soft skills and the professional world and what does that look like, you know, in this day and age, right?

So so much has changed again in the last few years what that looks like with hybrid and you know, casual work environments and technology, artificial intelligence and what’s acceptable uses and not. So that’s probably the thing that I’m most excited about mentoring because I’ve had the benefit of great mentors. So I think it’s the last thing, big thing that I was still had on my to-do list from when I started that I wanted get going, so it’s coming together and so thrilled and I just can’t wait to see where it goes, because again it’s going to fuel those connections and those opportunities that I love seeing happen.

Kendall Jones (30:18)
Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing. And when does that program officially kick off?

Jennifer Trevino (30:22)
So it’s gonna start this fall. Once we get a little bit past our mentor, or excuse me, our membership drive, getting that going, we’re gonna start taking applications and then I’ll start doing the, we’ll do the matching and roll that out so that we’re thinking we can do two to three cycles per year. So we’ll start with a smaller group. We’ll see how many folks are interested. And then the fact that they could do it more than once in a year or every year, I think it’s going to be a neat opportunity too. So we’re going to add some structure but not make it so so cumbersome that that people can’t find out something that works or doesn’t work.

Kendall Jones (31:04)
Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you for sharing more about that. That’s very exciting. And I can’t wait to see how that goes in its first year. So that’ll be great. And I know that I said just a second ago, we were about to wrap up with one more question, but we actually have one more question. So to officially kind of wrap us up here, Emily, is a question more directed towards you and your experience and your role. So what I’d love to just hear more of your thoughts on this as kind of a wrap up, but what do you think the future holds for nonprofits, especially in the current social economic realm? And what do you have for those listening to help guide them through this process or this change that you feel like is coming?

Emily Landry (31:50)
So here’s a little, well this podcast will be out afterwards, but our firm is going to continue putting out more and more content about the recently passed tax legislation. And so that’s something that when you are listening to this, go back, you’ll be able to find that content that will be incredibly valuable. Always feel free to connect with myself or Jonathan Rittenhouse for more direct content as we get further and further into the year.

But I would say in general some of the key ideas this year are definitely that while none of us think that tax strategies should be the reason that people give, the reality is that sometimes it can be the reason that someone does choose to give the way they choose to give or when they choose to give. So there should there could be some shifts in how people choose to give because of that.

I think that the the tax law will change some of that. There’s a universal charitable deduction you’re going to hear more and more about as we get into this year. You’re going to hear about how endowments might change. You might hear more about community foundations and donor advised funds being an alternative to creating your own tax exempt organization.

But our advice is always to find the topic you are passionate about and I think that’s so key to what Jennifer’s organization does and why we love as a firm working alongside them. It’s important to know what you care about whether it’s education or arts or anything and finding that kind of calling and working towards that is important, and then using ideas like the wealth strategies that an advisor might have for you or the way that a tax deduction may or may not benefit you in one particular year. Those are all sort of icing on the cake type ways that we might incentivize someone to do more or less in a particular year.

My just kind of closing thought is when it’s a tough year for you, it’s a tougher year for a nonprofit. So we encourage you to be generous towards them, whether your generosity is time, talent, or treasure. And that’s what leadership Fort Worth is really about. It’s not just about an ask for dollars, but maybe connecting your talent as an accountant, you really understand how financial metrics should work for an organization and maybe they have an organization that really needs that. Or maybe they have somebody that really needs resource hours and hours of volunteer work. So your giving doesn’t have to be financial and if you are wanting something to be different in your life or you’re at that age where you’re finding it tough to make friends, nonprofits are great way for that to be a difference maker and Jennifer and her team would be happy to make that change for you and to introduce you to some good people. She’s already mentioned she loves to be a connection person so I think if you are listening to this and you think, “Gosh I really liked Jennifer, I really liked some of the ideas she presented, I’m not sure that I’m a great fit for her programs but I’d really like to have coffee with her one day.”

We could possibly twist her arm into coffee with you one day. But I just, I want to give that last pitch at the end because Jennifer did not, but when it’s a tough year for us, it’s a tough year for them. So be thinking about that.

Kendall Jones (35:53)
Yeah, awesome. Good point, Emily. And Jennifer, what’s your go-to coffee order when the time does come so people know?

Jennifer Trevino (36:03)
Probably, depending on the place, there’s a couple places I really like their horchata lattes, but in general, across the board, cinnamon honey lattes. We run on coffee.

Kendall Jones (36:08)
Ooh, yeah. Iced or hot? I mean, I guess it depends on the weather. Yeah. Honey cinnamon lattes for Jennifer Trevino for those listening. She accepts deliveries.

But yes, definitely coffee chats are super important. So, well, Jennifer, Emily, thank you both so much for your time. Thank you for sharing a little bit more about your roles and your perspective and just where you think the nonprofit industry is going and what we’re excited for in the coming year. So again, really appreciate your time and I’ll go ahead and wrap up for those listening. So again, for those listening, if you enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or listen right on our website at willypenn.com slash podcast.

If you’re interested in learning more about our upcoming nonprofit conference, check the link in the description for more information and learn how to register there. Thank you again, Jennifer and Emily. We really did appreciate your time and look forward to the next, but hope you have a great day.